Curse

frojack · Dec 15, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I'm slowing changing the attitudes towards Ritualists one PuG at a time...

Last night, I just got done soloing (without henchmen) the Dunes of Despair bonus with my Rt/E, and noticed a group was looking for a necrotic transversal necro to do the bonus. Unfortunately, this poor group had heard of the trick, but had absolutely no idea how to pull it off (i.e. no vampiric weapons at all).

So, I joined their group and soloed the bonus for them. They were quite impressed with the power of a ritualist...

That's the spirit. Keep up the good work

. I myself am very surprised at the utter lack of rit knowledge the player base has. In the past, some groups have invited me purely because they didn't know what a rit could do...

Horseman Of War · Dec 15, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

i think its more of just a case (and definately NOT everyone here falls into this category!) of people not understanding the class.

On the arguement of SF eles- I could train my dog to play a searing flames ele-- there is NO intelligence required.

As far as rits= you need to be conscious of the battlefield, and a million other factors.

The rit might have lost popularity, and it was already one of the least common classes to see-

The problem is that nobody thinks they can do anything - any noob will tell you to play a straight ele or monk rather than a ritualist... because of their nonsense ideas of how to play channeling or restoration rits.

The spirit spammer (a misnomer, since you cant Spam something that goes so slow..) will never die.

My rit got me half my Gladiator points using restoration, channeling, spirit spam (doh), and explosive MM growth builds. The only thing I havent got down yet is a melee weapon rit tank... but ive seen them.

frojack · Dec 16, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

I wouldn't call em 'tanks' ^_^. That's my main problem with using one at the mo. I really don't like light-armour melee...

Kais Unduli · Dec 16, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Ritualists are far from dead. I'm seeing more and more rits popping up in missions and outposts, and some of them have the Vabbi or Ancient armor, which means the people playing them are dedicated to them.

Patccmoi · Dec 16, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

I wouldn't call em 'tanks' ^_^. That's my main problem with using one at the mo. I really don't like light-armour melee...

They're really not that frail. With stats at 12 Weapon/13 Spawning/9 Tactics, using a full Ghostforge armor (+15AL in weapon spell) and a shield (+45/-2 while enchanted is best imo cause if you're not enchanted you shouldn't be in melee in the first place), you have 91 base AL. If you use Watch Yourself!, it raises to 108AL.

We used Rt/Ws in GvG and they don't go down any easier than a warrior

Servant of Kali · Dec 16, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

If you guys are talking about PvE, Ritualist is still one of the strongest classes there.. A well-played Ritualist that is. In some team builds and some game areas, it has certain advantages than no other class atm has.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 16, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

A lot of the ritualist hate comes from them being slow. This makes them a liability in the early game, where you can plow through an entire mob in the 5 seconds it takes to cast just one offensive spirit. In the late game, however, their unremovable weapon spells, armor-ignoring spirit damage, and group protection potential makes them invaluable. Unfortunately, most people never take them past the early game.

Terra Xin · Dec 17, 2006, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

Nobody cares about 1v1 scrimmage, it isn't a test of anything except who happens to have the build that counters another build. Btw, an SF can bring Mystic Regeneration and have constant +9 health regeneration and continue killing you while that heals. But why bother when a monk can heal you, and the ele can get to killing stuff?

Like I said before, you have no basis to say that elementalists can overpower ritualists when you are basing that on... well... nothing really. Fortunately for me, I only need to be a ritualist to know they can outdamage an ele, because ive done so... many many... wonderful times.... ahhh great times. And no, I'm not just talking about 1 on 1 scrimmages. Though I do feel insulted that you think im a nobody, I care about scrimmages.

Of course, I use Lyssa's Balance in my build, so har har to your silly regen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horseman of War

The problem is that nobody thinks they can do anything - any noob will tell you to play a straight ele or monk rather than a ritualist... because of their nonsense ideas of how to play channeling or restoration rits.

That's true. Anyone who plays a rit will try to make comparisons towards other classes, and then base their abilities on that. Its a really stupid thing to do - and it's exactly what happened with the Mesmer, right up until Nightfall came out and the Mesmers' increased attire of offensive, high damaging skills. They're capable of pulling off a 400 untyped damage spike in 4 seconds - every 30 seconds. But nobody looks at that.

For those who know how to play a ritualist properly, they are entirely capable of... you know what? They're like females, capable of doing many things at once.... there you go - how about them apples^^.

But if there is one thing I would love for the negatives to take away with them, it's this:

Ritualists are the masters of skill SYNERGY. Every skill works well and works even better with other attribute lines. Ritualists work much, much more effectively when there are two of them. They have a high DPS and the longest term DPS on a single target in the game (I don't care how many times you think they don't. They do.)

frojack · Dec 17, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Like I said before, you have no basis to say that elementalists can overpower ritualists when you are basing that on... well... nothing really. Fortunately for me, I only need to be a ritualist to know they can outdamage an ele, because ive done so... many many... wonderful times.... ahhh great times. And no, I'm not just talking about 1 on 1 scrimmages. Though I do feel insulted that you think im a nobody, I care about scrimmages.

Of course, I use Lyssa's Balance in my build, so har har to your silly regen.

That's true. Anyone who plays a rit will try to make comparisons towards other classes, and then base their abilities on that. Its a really stupid thing to do - and it's exactly what happened with the Mesmer, right up until Nightfall came out and the Mesmers' increased attire of offensive, high damaging skills. They're capable of pulling off a 400 untyped damage spike in 4 seconds - every 30 seconds. But nobody looks at that.

For those who know how to play a ritualist properly, they are entirely capable of... you know what? They're like females, capable of doing many things at once.... there you go - how about them apples^^.

But if there is one thing I would love for the negatives to take away with them, it's this:

Ritualists are the masters of skill SYNERGY. Every skill works well and works even better with other attribute lines. Ritualists work much, much more effectively when there are two of them. They have a high DPS and the longest term DPS on a single target in the game (I don't care how many times you think they don't. They do.)

When it comes to synergy with 2, the elementalist has similar co-op ability. Still, no one cares (it's so annoying). Also, 1 v 1 is rubbish. A build can be constructed to take out any opposing class, as long as you know what that class is. It holds no value.

What it all boils down to is this; The Ritualist has potential. They can do a lot of good but they are highly precarious creatures. Highly situational. Obviously too much so for most people (high-end or low) to deal with.
They are a class who's variety and flexibility is their key attribute. They exist however in an environment(meta-game) that requires efficiency and strength in a particular area. That strength (in this environment) unfortunately can't be flexibility. The only thing that they can do differently is Spirits, but we all know how well they work in pvp...

Maybe it's just the way people want to play the game (en-mass). Until flexibility becomes a key component in mid-high end pvp, Ritualists will be rare and the hate will be common.

EDIT: I did see quite a few in HA though. Spirit-spamming (using Recovery to remove Conditions faster etc) to power Necro's. HA however is now the gutter as far as I'm concerned.
Especially when all I see is "5/6 lf 1 more SF ele to complete team!". Can Anet please either nerf this skill or improve it's counters? Do something? It's not over-powered but it's over-used...

Redfeather1975 · Dec 17, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

I think I've already mentioned this here. Maybe I did only in the other guildwars fansites, but in Everquest 2 the community was experienced enough and used lots of in-depth analysis to actually figure out what classes are best used with other classes. Guild Wars has multiple tank professions now and multiple healing professions to. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Different sustained dps or healing potential, different spike dps or healing potential, avoidance tanking or mitigation tanking. They all have their own builds and those builds can work better when in a group working with other particular builds.

I wish people were not thinking about how a class is essentially the best at this and not good at that, because that has absolutely nothing to do with what builds/professions work better with other group members builds/professions.
Maybe the average player is not at that point of experience yet? Maybe with the addition of Hero Battles, people will get more experience in developing entire group builds. I know the main Guild Wars site now has sections on group synergy and even gives examples of different builds for each profession and how they work better with other professions with certain types of builds. I know that the guildwars wiki posts group builds, but they are so few and far between that you end up seeing the average player only looking for professions to fit these few cookie cutter groups. There's so much more potential out there then the few group builds I see for areas.

I can't wait until the more experienced players start posting not single builds, but entire group builds, where each profession is using their skills together in a way similar to how a single build would be using it's primary and secondary together. Like a Necro party member casts Dark Aura on the Ritualist and the Ritualist starts spamming sacrifice heals on themselves to do AOE damage now. That's just off the top of my head.

Oh yeah. I'm sure I'm not the first to notice this combo, but it's my first time trying it! Is cool.

frojack · Dec 17, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Exactly. Good idea by the way. Though I'm sure the high-end pvp guys construct team builds already. It's just telling how little the ritualist features.

Still, I like the idea of posting team builds. I rarely post builds as it is (I guess I think most of mine are basic enough for most people to grasp by themselves) but I'll try and put some team builds together when time allows...

edit: Interesting video. Never considered using Swap like that. Very interesting indeed...

unmatchedfury · Dec 18, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Oh yeah. I'm sure I'm not the first to notice this combo, but it's my first time trying it! Is cool.

LOl at that. A 10 second combo of non imbaness?

that had all the dps of a badly played whammo.... The teleport was cool if there was any items spells that wer actually devistating.

Patccmoi · Dec 19, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Oh yeah. I'm sure I'm not the first to notice this combo, but it's my first time trying it! Is cool.

Lol, i posted something similar to that on gwo today without seeing you post it here. I don't think it's something good in PvP or anything, but i've been running that in PvE for a change. You can do like 500 AOE damage in a 3s window in a pretty big AOE, and like 400 damage of this hits in a single blast. It will often wipe a big pack of mobs that were soften before in a really funny way. What i add is Destructive was Glaive for elite.

What i do is cast Destruction, let it build while i spam basic Channeling nukes (Spirit Burn, Essence Strike...), after like 15s i use Glaive, after like 20-25s i run in biggest group of mob, swap with Destruction (the shadowstep makes you drop Glaive for damage), throw a new Glaive on Destruction (ya... you can throw Glaive even on SPIRITS!) and Rupture it. Destruction goes off for 120-150 damage, Glaive falls for 106 damage and Rupture hits for 128. Add to that the Glaive you dropped swapping and it's a LOT of damage in a HUGE AOE. But ofc it takes time to build your destruction, etc. and i don't think that'd work in PvP hehe. What could work though is using a hidden Glaive bomb on spirits with Rupture. For example you see a warrior near a spirit in Frenzy, throw a Glaive on the spirit and Rupture it for 250 damage. On a Frenzy war that can hurt a lot =p

It would be a funny thing to do actually along with a Communing Rt spammer. If a war goes to take down spirit, you throw Glaives and Rupture. Gotta try that sometimes =p

And i really agree with the group builds part. Especially for Ritualists, group builds are essential because they are MUCH better with other Rts around. That's something i do a lot personally cause i love making uncommon GvG builds (our 3 Rt builds was even referred to in the GotWeek article on DeeR hehe), and they include Rts more often than not lately. And the thing is really what you say : team synergy. For example we have a build with a D/N spamming Order of Pain + Dark Fury to provide constant cover enchant and adrenal buff to Rt/Ws using Spirit Strength and Sight beyond Sight (+40 damage in Flurry and can't be blind ftw. Those BSurge Me/E sure bite the dust fast) while fueling the energy of a D/Mo healer with Healer's Boon (with infinite energy from the orders ending on him all the time for +4E and Healer's Boon giving him +50% to heal, he can spam things like Heal Other and even use Heal Party for 100 without running into energy problem. It's more efficient than a heal monk by far in these conditions). But it's all about a team build, none of those characters are reliable on their own in GvG because of enchant strip, etc. But the synergy between them covers for a lot and it's very reliable overall since the D/N is actually remote from fight so no matter what the other team is running it will hardly affect his job. It's just an example (and one of the most wild ones hehe) but it shows some kind of build synergy that can turn some apparently bad builds into a force to reckon with.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 19, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Patccmoi, disregard my post in gwo about me thinking you were making fun of me. I didn't know you hadn't seen the post I made asking for help with swap. I thought you were poking fun that you got Glaive to work when I'd said I couldn't get it to work at all.

Carth` · Dec 19, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Of course, I use Lyssa's Balance in my build, so har har to your silly regen.

lol, you're thinking as if it's a 1v1 game again. I could daze you, and har har to your entire skill bar. Everything has a counter, silly scrimmage matches only prove who happens to have the counter to the other player's build. Or maybe if they're even matches, it proves who gets the first hit.

I like the ritualist, it's fun to play sometimes, I play it for variety when bored. But for most situations, another character would be better.

Toll Booth Willie · Dec 19, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

I like playing my rit occasionally but it was a pain getting in a PUG. Now with heros and hench i don't have to worry abou that anymore.

I think some classes will start to die out though with 2 new classes coming out every 6 months. Also Anet wants to sell copies of each new campaign so the new classes have to be equal or better than the current classes. Rits still have a place in the game but as more chapters come out some classes will become less played.

(i'm sleepy and after re-reading this I really didn't convay my point well but i want sleep more than a re-write)

Khaunshar · Dec 19, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Actually so far it looks like Anet is more or less trying to keep the new classes below the powerlevel of the core classes. At least Factions went that way, and it starts in Nightfall as well.

Its almost as if there is the rule that no expansion class may ever surpass a core class in an area they compete in.

Kais Unduli · Dec 19, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

It will be interesting to see how the new classes affect the game. In Factions we have 1 melee and 1 caster class, and in Nightfall we have 2 melee classes. When the next chapter comes out, we'll have to see if Anet brings in any new caster classes, and how they interact with the professions we already have.

That being said, I don't think we'll see anything related to the ritualist, so it's safe to say we'll still be around in Chapter 4. If another melee class comes out, I don't think we'll be seeing many dervishes or assassins in the next campaign.

Carth` · Dec 19, 2006, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kais Unduli

and in Nightfall we have 2 melee classes

1 melee 1 ranged

frojack · Dec 19, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

I don't know what's happening but it seems Rit's are everywhere I look now

. In HA they swarm the place. I even saw a match between Necro Raiders [NR] and Mundane Fabulous Guards [MfG] where there were multiple rit's on both sides.

NR was running 4 (yes 4!) rit's. They were using Glaive, giving it to their Frenzied axe warrior to spike. Very interesting to watch. MfG played an interesting game with Weapon of Remedy. A good one if you ask me. Anyways it seems Rit's aren't as dead as people seem to think.

Make sure you check out the match.